DEARBORN, Michigan – Detroit area attorney Abdu Murray and Dr. Andy Bannister of Toronto (who holds a PhD in Islamic Studies) will discuss the topic “Is Christianity Delusional?” – on Thursday evening, April 18 – in a special community lecture and discussion at the University of Michigan, Dearborn Campus.
Andy and Abdu will be tackling Muslim and atheist challenges to the rationality of the Christian faith. The event will feature an interactive question and answer period. The discussion is being held at the University of Michigan’s Dearborn Campus, but it is open to the general public. The meeting will be located in Room 1030 of the College of Arts, Science, and Letters (CASL) building, Thursday April 18th at 6:15 pm. There is no need to register and attendance is free of charge.
Abdu Murray
Abdu Murray, a familiar face in the Dearborn area business community, was born into a Shiite Muslim family that encouraged his studies of the Qur’an and Islam.
During several years of investigation into the historical and philosophical underpinnings of the major world religions, Abdu discovered that evidence for the historic Christian faith could withstand the toughest intellectual challenges.
In 1999, Abdu earned his Juris Doctor from the University of Michigan Law School. He earned his Bachelor’s Degree in Psychology from the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor in 1995.
Several years ago Abdu founded Aletheia International to promote the credibility of the Gospel to Muslims and atheists. Aletheia is the Greek word for truth. The literal meaning of the word ἀ–λήθεια is “the state of not being hidden; the state of being evident” and also implies sincerity, factuality or reality. Recently the organization changed it’s name to Embrace the Truth.
Abdu is also author of the book: Apocalypse Later – Why the Gospel (Good News) of Peace Must Trump the Politics of Prophecy in the Middle East. Many scholars and theologians (Christian, Muslim and Jew) have pondered God’s promise to Abraham – “Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him.” After several years of research (around 1993), Abdu came across a passage of scripture where John the Baptist was warning the religious people of the day: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruits in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.” Abdu said he realized “it’s not important what your religious heritage is [your religious background]. What’s important is seeking the truth.”
Dr. Andy Bannister
Dr. Andy Bannister speaks and teaches regularly throughout Canada, the USA, Europe and the wider world. From churches to universities, business forums to TV and radio, Andy regularly addresses audiences of Christians and Muslims and those of all faiths (and no faith) on issues relating to faith, culture, politics and society.
He has spoken, written, and taught at a variety of universities on both Islam and philosophy and is an Adjunct Research Fellow at the Centre for the Study of Islam and Other Faiths at Melbourne School of Theology.
When not travelling, speaking, or writing, Andy is a keen hiker, mountain climber and photographer. He lives in Toronto and is married to Astrid.
The Christians are those who have been led astray.
There is no truth to the doctrine of the trinity and to even many of the 27 books of the NT.
The 27 books that eventually ended up as the the NT was decided by one man named Athanasius(Bishop of Alexandria) in 367 CE.
The concept of the trinity never even existed until around the end of the 4th CE.
What Christians do not know of an early history of the orthodox religion is kept from them and for good reason.
There are no surviving original wrtings of the NT not even copies of copies of the originals. The earliest writing found, dates to the end of the 2nd CE.
Never mentioned in their Christian education is all of the many different outlooks on what Jesus really came to say. There were many different views and we know this because of books discovered that were written as defense and attacks on what were viewed as heretic views of Christianity at the time.
Just look at the Nag Hammadi scriptures for one.
Christianity of today is just the orthodox view that eventually won ouy over many other schools of thought of what Jesus said and commanded when He was here.
Matthew 5: 17-20
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them, For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the Kingom of Heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and the Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven.”
So Jesus tells us this and the Christians follow what Paul tells them, who never even met Christ or spent any time learning from His disciples.
Can you honestly say, that the Christians are not astray in their worship to God?
GC66…
so what is your faith? what do u believe in?
GC – Your point? I have to wonder – to what purpose have you made these comments?
* Do these speakers upset you for some reason? Has one of them wronged you in some way?
* Do those who call themselves Christians offend you? (You give no hint as to what you do believe in… and yet you make it obvious as to what you disagree with…)
* Is this an attempt to convince yourself as to why you disagree with the Christian faith?
* Maybe an attempt to convince others to stay away from the the lecture?
Interesting – You’ve attached your diatribe to the tail end of a simple announcement – the place and time of a speaking engagement. Your unsolicited negative views might be better served in a forum that solicits debate on belief systems.
God bless you, friend…
I bet this will be a great talk!
In response to GC66:
1. A 1st century Christian document called the Didache shows that the earliest Christians baptized based on the formula Jesus gave, “in the name [singular] of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit [plural].” (Matthew 28)
2. Textual critics of the New Testament (whether Christian or not) ALL agree that there is more to back up the New Testament documents than any other comparable ancient document. The Rylands Library papyrus P52 (the Gospel of John) dates to c.125AD, a date earlier than many scholars had said that John’s Gospel was even written!
3. Both New Testament writers and early church fathers dealt with strange stories about Jesus (such as the Nag Hammadi scriptures) in their writings, just as today we have to deal with fiction like the Da Vinci Code. These stories are totally foreign to the tone of the Bible. All other religious writings (Qu’ran included) speak in mystical ways, while the Bible is based in the public history that a man was publicly killed and afterwards was publicly viewed alive by more than 500 people (1 Corinthians 15).
4. On the Christian view of the Law and the Prophets, Jesus stated in Matthew 24 that the temple would be destroyed (and therefore sacrifice); and Paul states in Romans 3:31 that we do not “make void” the law as Christians. Both are in agreement that as Christians we have the highest standard to live up to, but this standard is not fulfilled by the written code. Jesus was pointing to a deeper standard of purity in action, thought, and intention.
All of this was prophesied by Jeremiah (in chapter 31) when he said that God was going to give a NEW COVENANT (Greek, H KAINE DIATHEKE, “a new testament”) in which God would write the Law on their hearts!
So no, I don’t think that Christians are astray. Faith was a reasonable decision I arrived at through rational reflection, alone with a Bible, and since then I have lived a different life.
GC66… Its a bold statement to make about there having no truth in the New Testament and the trinity….. Which part of the trinity does not exist?
If there’s no YHWH, then there’s no Yahshua, if there’s no Yahshua then there’s no Holy Spirit, if there’s no Holy Spirit then who puts me on the floor by the glory of YHWH and who teaches me all things in Christ?
Jhn 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Jhn 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Jhn 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.
I don’t believe out of fear but I believe out of conviction of the Holy Spirit…..
John 14:15 Jesus says, “If you love Me, you will obey what I command you. And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor to be with you forever – the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you know Him, for He lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see Me anymore, but you will see Me. Because I live, you also will live.
Do you believe that black holes exist?
You can’t see those but you accept that fact because scientists have observed them and concluded a written report about the probable nature of the super dense dark matter.
Do you accept their report as fact, if you do then that is having faith in scientists….
Can you accept that I wondered about truth in the gospel and was saved by Yahshua. The Holy Spirit pours out his love on me daily… Teaches me things that I don’t even have the language to express. I have faith and see works, I pray and witness miracles, I sin and I am refined in the furnace of affliction, I laugh and I tremble, I see ministering spirits & evil spirits…… Amazingly my God birthed me twice….
You can’t take away my testimony because my experience is part of me and I would give anything for you to experience Yahshua because there is no other love like him…..
In every country where there is a Muslim majority, Christians are persecuted, harassed, abused, and killed. Some are even killed by beheading and burning. Islamic Law dicates that apostates be killed if they leave islam. I should know, I am an apostate. Muslims come to this country and demand their rights, even going so far as to advocate for human rights, womens rights, and religious freedoms, just to name a few. But in Muslim countries, if you are a Christian, you are a second class citizen under Islamic Sharia’h Law; you even have to pay a tax (Jizya, this is from an actual verse in the Qur’an) for being a non-Muslim. You can know the root of Islam by its fruits. I encourage everyone to visit persecution.org to learn more about Islamic persecution of Christians all over the world. Do not be misled.
The attacks GC66 raised on the New Testament and the Trinity are common amongst Muslim scholars… So it’s probably pretty easy to guess what faith he/she believes in.
I hope this talk becomes available online!!!!!
I am pretty excited for this event. Looking forward to all the discussions and the intellectual debates.
No one wants to address Matthew 5: 17-20.
Jesus came to uphold the Law(not just the 10 commandments by the way) and Paul tells you belief in his death is all that is needed for salvation.
Think about it very seriously for a few seconds………………….
Would God really just make it that easy without us earning salvation?
“I am Christian so I can sin all day long, go to church for one hour, asked to be forgiven, go home and start sinning all over again. It’s ok though, because I get a get out of hell free card because I believe Jesus died for all sins, past, present and future.”
Are you serious folks?????
Where is the accountability to God in upholding his commandments( not to mention the law)?
This is a paranoid and delusional reply.
You show you are under the heavy influence of MSM with the propaganda against Islam and Muslims.
People like Pam Gellar and Robert Spencer and blogs such as the one you highlighted are backed by agendas and they do a great disservice to all people of faith with their hatred themes.
Remember the incident not that long ago when the “so named Christians” walked into the all Arab festival up in Dearborn and showed online the agitation of the Arabs and Muslims??
Those filth, failed to show the pigs head on the end of the stake, which eventually surfaced later.
That was supposedly in the name of “Christianity”??
What was Christian about that?
If you are here to obey Jesus, then why do you not uphold the law under the ten commandments.
It is right there for you in Matthew 5: 17-20, which was written 30 years earlier than John.
Let me ask you…… do you believe Matthew and John are the authors of their respective books, including Revelation?
Mark, we have no originals, not even copies of copies of the originals.
The earliest writing we have, dates to around 195 CE.
All of the earliest writings were in Greek and copied by untrained and overburdened scribes at the time who made error upon error that were eventually copied by later scribes or were erased completely because they were thought to be errors and could well have been actual corrections.
Then we go to professional scribes that translate all of these Greek manuscripts into Latin(error and all). This is what we have today, books full of errors or are they???? Who knows for sure??
You can not discount the Nag Hamadi scriptures because they were obviously of huge influence early on because of all the attacks in volumes that we have of orthodox Christianity from the first few hundred years after Jesus.
We know of the Ebonites(Chritian Jews more or less), Marconians and many who outright disagreed with Paul in churches he established.
What we have today….. is just the doctrine that eventually won out over all of the other existing philosphy of Jesus.
Everyone believes Paul??? Why???? He never spent time around Jesus or the disciples except to argue with Peter for half a day.
He gained everything from a brief dream/vision?
He persecuted severely, Christians before this.
Paul does not have God’s authority to justify this belief as salavation. Those that believe this…… are in severe peril upon Judgement Day.
Mr. GC66 wants to complain about “Pam Gellar and Robert Spencer” and the strange people with a Pig’s Head on Pole — rather than deal with what Abdu Murray and Dr. Andy Bannister have to say in Dearborn this week.
Learn what this means: “We played the flute for you, and you did not dance;
we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.”
In other words, you might not be happy no matter who comes to Dearborn to talk. Even if one of your own people comes back to Dearborn to speak with you – will you listen to him? Even if he asks you really nicely to listen – will you listen?
I said the Christians are astray in their beliefs but not outright wrong in all of their worship.
Tolerance is part of all faiths toward God.
GC66,
With your date of 195, you obviously completely ignored my earlier reference to P52, dated to 125, possibly even 1st century. You should google that…
If you actually studied what the variations are, you would know that they are basically small. They are things like switching between “Jesus Christ” and “Christ Jesus,” and they don’t leave any major Christian doctrine in doubt if studied.
Many of the earliest Christian manuscripts are completely available on Google. If the Qur’an truly is uncorrupted, why does the Muslim world not publish the oldest Qur’an manuscripts?
I also addressed your problems with Matthew 5:17. If Jesus said the temple would be destroyed, doesn’t that mean that sacrifice would also end, since the entire point of the temple was sacrifice? Wasn’t Jesus implying what Paul said, that his sacrifice would fulfill the goal of all other previous sacrifices?
In chapter 15 of Acts, every heavy-hitter in the entire New Testament (including Paul, Barnabas, Peter, Judas Barsabbas, Silas, “the apostles and elders”) was a part of the decision that the Law of Moses—a Jewish law—did not have to be followed by Gentiles who wanted to follow God, because Jesus likewise “purified their hearts by faith.”
You might say that Christianity allows sin, but I do not, nor do my friends, or my church, or my friends’ churches, or the New Testament. If you don’t judge Christianity by its abuses, then I won’t judge Islam by its abuses.
GC66 –
Three quick things – you stated
“Think about it very seriously for a few seconds………………….
Would God really just make it that easy without us earning salvation?
“I am Christian so I can sin all day long, go to church for one hour, asked to be forgiven, go home and start sinning all over again. It’s ok though, because I get a get out of hell free card because I believe Jesus died for all sins, past, present and future.””
That is not a Christian. That is a confused unbeliever. There is absolutely no support for this mindset in scripture.
Second, Islam presumes that it is possible for man to stand before a completely holy God purely of his own accord. In my opinion, that demeans God and really undercuts the nature of His holiness.
Lastly, the heaven of Islam is all about man (his pleasures forever more). The heaven of Christianity is all about God (worshiping Him forever more). That is just something to ponder when thinking about which religion might be man made and which might be true.
Where on earth did your understanding (actually not understanding )of Islam come from?
Islam and Judaism are more correct to the worship of God than Christianity.
Many Christians lead completely immoral lives all the while professing they are “Christian” simply because they believe in the resurrection.
That is outright blasphemy toward God and His laws,
So many are Christian in title but not in their heart.
Muslims and Jews are not perfect, but they know they are completely accountable to God alone and follow more closely that of what God has commanded.
Mark, do you believe that Jesus is the son of God?
You sound very close to a Jehovah Witness belief.
Why would God abolish what He had commanded for all people up to the Gentiles?
Why treat them differently?
As for the few differences of scripture, that is because all scripture considered heretic in views was either destroyed or lost to mankind forever. This is to make us believe that the orthodox view of today was there from the get go and that just is not so.
There were many differing views and we know this from the attacks and defenses written by by the leaders of this time.
The Nag Hamadi is absolute proof of this.
Trying to sweep this under the carpet won’t work.
I am not sure about the original Quran? That’s a good question that should be addressed.
The Quran was compiled from many different sources since it was revealed to Muhammad over a period of years. People came forth when called by Him to bring together during His life what they had written and compared it to what others had written of the same surahs heard during the revealing of the surah. Not all were around at the same time when the surahs would be revealed to Him.
In the Bible, one man is responsible for telling all what the 27 books of canon were to be used in the Church. Athanaisus, Bishop of Alexandria in 367 CE declared it official.
The entire NT was never put together as one book until the 8th CE.
We have no idea how much was lost or corrupted due to the scribes who were copying texts back then due to no early manusripts that survive.
John was written around 95 CE but that does not mean the earliest manuscript we have was from that time. I t was also the last of the four written and John most likely did not and could not have written it, same with Matthew.
GC66 makes a really good point here: “Many (SO CALLED) Christians lead completely immoral lives all the while professing they are “Christian” simply because they believe in the resurrection. That is outright blasphemy toward God and His laws, So many are Christian in title but not in their heart.”
In Judaism, Islam, and Christianity – there are many people who are “nominal believers”.
In America, there are many “so called” Christians, who have never read the Bible, and have no idea what Jesus taught. This confuses many Muslims because they look at America (see the wickedness of Hollywood movies and the way people in America live) and think that those people are really Christians.
A real Christian is willing to have a Muslim over for tea every day in his home and read Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John (scripture) – page by page and talk and pray together.
Don’t be fooled by “phony hypocrite Christians” you meet at some local bar – they are not real Christians. There are fakes (wolves in sheep’s clothing) sent by Satan to confuse everyone.
Abdu Murray and Andy Bannister are REAL Christians. They will take the time to talk and pray with you and explain what the Bible teaches.
You should be very afraid of people who are religious people who live a double life — living a wicked lifestyle but claiming they have faith in God. However, this is also true of many Muslims in Dearborn, who claim to be religious, but live very wicked lives.
With all that said: Read the article again where it says: After several years of research (around 1993), Abdu came across a passage of scripture where John the Baptist was warning the religious people of the day: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruits in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.” Abdu said he realized “it’s not important what your religious heritage is [your religious background]. What’s important is seeking the truth.”
Are you seeking truth?
I agree completely with this statement.
Muslims from over seas do not understand the true Christian nature for that is exactly what they are exposed to over here in movies and stars professing they are Christian but leading completely immoral lives.
Muslims do believe in the Bible, but they believe that much of it has been tampered with and are very weary of “some” of it’s contents, not all of it.
Muslims are not perfect in their faith either, but they are stricter in morals and their worship if they are practicing their faith daily. They have to ask to be forgiven of their sins they know they commit daily and they commit many, that is why prayer is required five times per day. That’s how much sin goes on per day either in action or impure thoughts.
I do not live in Michigan, therefore I am not aware of the Muslim influence in and around Detroit.
Muslims are everywhere and many continue to come from abroad to practice their faith unmolested here in America. They have left home(many of them) to escape violence that has nothing to do with Islam but very mcuh political and cultural attachments not related to the worship of God in Islam.
Islam and Christianity are very close if only you understood how closely related they truly are.
God tells the Muslims in the Quran, the Christians are closest to you in acts of worship, so seek them out as your friends.
No Islam and Christianity are not very close in similarity at all. Mohammad could have been witnessed to by Gabriel if he had not kept adding to and adding to false things that he just wanted in his own lusts. Gabriel told Mohammad that both Jews and Christians were protected and to respects their books of faith and to lead his people away from idolatry and back to God which was good. Up to that point, Mohammad could have been for Arabs what Paul was for Greeks and for Arabs alike and for all non Jews. Paul also makes mistakes and that is why as a Christian you must always hold every thing to the litmus test of what did Jesus teach. If Mohammad had only taught what he was first revealed he might today be part of the Bible but everything he taught after he left the cave was his own delusional conquest for power. He is a false prophet because his works do not hold up to the truths of the Bible. In fact, his works became so twisted that he is a prime example of the spirit of the Anti-Christ.
Hey, I’m no expert in religions and their History. I am a Christian and totally convinced that the Bible is truly Gods Word.
I’d just like to raise a point, I may not reply to any answers just because I am only a teen and feel really unqualified to answer back to many things.
Please correct me if im wrong, but isn’t it true that Muhammad wasn’t sure if the Angel who spoke to him was actually from God or not? That he had to go and ask his family about it and all. Yet we see with Noah, Moses and many other prophets that if God was to send an Angel to speak, they were certain it was from God.
Now this is only something I have heard, I have not done my research, please forgive me for my ignorance! I just wanted to raise that point and see what you guys have to say about it, cause I have infact heard Lee Strobels mention something similar.
Also one last point if I may, Jesus and his resurrection has hundreds to thousands of witnesses, yet Muhammad being told things in a cave by an Angel who he is not sure is even from God only has one witness, himself.
Again this is a point I have only heard been brung up by people, what is your view on this? History points in favor to Christianity rather than Islam.
Please forgive me for my ignorance, just wanted to raise a few points! Grace and Peace!
P.S. Karen Sherry Brackett, very good point in that last comment!
GC66: The Bible actually says to pray continually, more than a mere 5 times per day. (1 Thessalonians 5:17). A relationship with God is meant to be enjoyed! He is our Father, Friend, Beloved, AND Lord. Having a perverted view of God in any one of those four dimensions will cripple your view of God entirely.
When it comes to Judgment Day, I know I don’t deserve Heaven. I have sinned in ways that today, the memory of them makes my stomach turn. My sin was a crushing weight on myself until I looked to Jesus, and understood the cross for the first time: that God came humbly as a man, lived a perfectly holy life, and gave His life in my place. Where I deserved death, God declared over all time that I was worth it to Him. He died for me, but He rose from the grave because the Creator and Giver of Life is simply more powerful. It’s not that I’m suddenly enabled to be perfect; it’s that I don’t want to sin anymore because I am in love with my Savior. I look at Judgment Day as a Wedding Day. (Matthew 22). We are so selfish, we cannot earn heaven like it is some kind of contest or prize. The idea is that God wants us to want HIM. Do you want Him? You must have faith in Jesus.
Romans 10:3-4 (referring to the Israelites, in context) “Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.”
And concerning the manuscripts, I just have to ask: why is it so strange that God would use normal paper, that happens to deteriorate over the course of thousands of years? Yet we do have thousands of incredibly early manuscripts, compared to the works of Homer, Josephus, Tactus, or Aristotle which at second best honestly don’t even compare.
If Jesus had the same moral character as we have, I would have to reject Him. But if the Jesus we read about in the Bible is truly real–a just and merciful Redeemer, healing every kind of illness and disease–why would anyone want to depart from His side?
GC66:
Jesus proved he was the Son of God by rising from the dead after being stabbed in the heart (John 19:34). His tomb was guarded by soldiers who would receive the death penalty if they even fell asleep.
Practically every point of doubt that you raise can be turned equally to Islam. You judge Christianity by its “fringe,” Gnosticism. Entire books of the New Testament (1 John, for example) address these strange mystical teachings and reject them outright as outside either Jewish or Christian tradition or theology.
With equal reason, I could equally doubt Islam because of Sufism, which is also mystic, claims secret knowledge, and is even polytheistic. But I don’t claim that Sufism is either original Islam or that it gives reason to doubt the purity of Islam; you shouldn’t claim that Gnosticism does the same for Christianity.
From a historical point of view, you have no reason to doubt that Jesus in fact died, as it is written in multiple well-attested documents with thousands of existing manuscripts, and afterwards appeared to the disciples several times, and later to hundreds of people. All this argument about fringe Christianity and textual criticism is a distraction from the real issue.
No other religion can deal with sin. Atheism says it doesn’t exist, or is normal. Buddhism deals with it through self-annihilation. Islam deals with sin by force and human willpower. Only Christianity says that sin is so awful to God’s holiness that he had to find a way to justly forgive ANY sin (from murder to prayerlessness). Jesus deals with that sin by rising from the dead, demonstrating that he has the power to give us a new life where we no longer have to sin against God or our fellow-man. I am not strong enough to deal with my sin, and neither are you! But Jesus is.
It’s good that you strive to understand and God loves those that strive for the truth.
This is a blessing for you whether you believe the opposing view or not.
Very early on, yes Muhammad was approached by Gabriel(Jibril in the Arabic tongue). He was unsure whether he was delusional and losing his mind until his wife pressed him to go back to the cave again to address this being whom claimed to be the angel Gabriel.
He did so and the angel addressed Muhammad for the first time with God’s words in the Quran.. He told Muhammad that he would reveal to him a message for all of manknd and Muhammad knew not when it was going to be revealed as it was through a number of years.
When Muhammad received the surrahs(verses) from Gabriel, people were always around him and they were known as the companions of the prophet. It was not always the same people but the total number of his closest companions was around 300 altogether, but again, never all at the same time. They would record in writing what was being translated to Muhammad and then when he was done, he would ask them to repeat it for him to make sure it was indeed correct. Eventually Muhammad asked everyone to bring forth the writings in the last year before he died to get an accurate reading of what had transpired over the years in revelations to him. He did it in entirety twice the year of his death in front of the entire Muslim nation at this time so there would be no dispute as to what God’s words truly were.
The history goes on from here into much depth of the actual compilation of the Quran as an entire book.
Why would anyone depart from his side?
Because Lisa, why does God need a son( a human attribute), which is a blasphemy toward God, because He is beyond human needs, when He could simply say “Be” and it is?
If the prophets sent before Jesus were not enough of a message in the way of God, why do people need to elevate one to the status of God’s son(again blasphemy)?
You quote heavily Paul’s theology which IMO, is the error of Christianity and the area where Muslims are very weary of the Bible being the words of God at this point.
Remember that Muslims also hold the Gospel as God’s words, we are just warned to be careful of some of it for God tells us that man has attributed things to Him for which He gave no authority to do so. Thus why Muslims reference the Quran when in dispute about what the Bible says.
Paul falls within this warning from God.
Mark, one man can not absolve the sins of humanity and you should relaize this.
God holds us personally accountable to Him for our sins.
It is hard for you to justify what Paul says against what Jesus says( and all of God’s prophets sent before hand) and tell me that Paul got it right from a brief vision.
Regardless of what you see in the Bible, Peter actually did not come to agree with Paul’s view. There are writings not in the NT that say he did not agree. Also, Luke, who is attributed to writing Acts as well, was a traveling companion of Paul.
Why is 3rd Cronthians not included in the NT? It was written by Paul, apostle to the Gentiles.
Because……. one very powerful Bishop decided what was to be the 27(and only 27) books of scripture out of dozens upon dozens.
The NT contradicts in many places, especially the view of women in the church.
Please tell me if Matthew and John wrote their respective books??
GC, no matter what you try to argue – no matter what you try to debate, Christians hold one thing very close to them and that is Hope. Hope in a better tomorrow. If you have read the Torah or the Qur’an, you’ve probably realized that Christianity offers up a way (Mr. JC) to come to God. This might be hard for you to understand, but Christianity on the whole is the only tolerant welcoming religion out there in terms that regardless of who you are, Jesus died for everybody – not just specific individuals (now, this differs from denomination to denomination, agreed) but the overall concept is that God is Love. When you look at The Torah and the Qu’ran – the God pictured in these is not a Loving God but a very darn just God – if you don’t follow the Book to the closest you can which most would argue you need to follow it perfectly, following the Laws set down – you will go to Hell (or as in Qur’an – God will kill all the infidels). I won’t argue with you that the structure of the Bible is one of the hardest complex topics to fully comprehend, people have different views – it’s written over a course of 1600 years by a good amount of men from different places in Europe and that it’s bound to differ in the way it’s interpreted. However, one thing is for certain – if this really is the book of God, there are no errors and from what historians, archaeologists, and other people have discovered, the Bible comes pretty close to hitting the nail right on the dot.
It sounds like you need to explore these religions, talk to new people, argue like you’re doing, for the person who seeks will find. The person with an open mind who is welcoming new ideas may find the truth, but if you seem to think you know everything, then please e-mail them so that Abdu and Andy can speak with you.
GC,
I have noticed you have been very respectful in your arguments and attacks. I see you are outnumbered here and I apologize for that, but I still hope you continue to research the Bible and look for plausible answers to the questions you posed instead of reading it to find flaws. I’m not saying you should do so in order to convert, but rather to only see Christians’ perspective of God’s amazing and personal love. It really has filled me with more joy than I can express. Thank you!
I appreciate your kind comments.
You see Sean…… I was raised as a Christian and then in college, I left belief in God for over 20 years.
I became Muslim because I read a well researched biography of over 800 pages of Muhammad and then I read the Quran and immediately recognized a them I was famaliar with in Christianity.
The message in the Quran hit me right in my heart and it made so much sense to me as to these are indeed the words of God perfected from corruption and things said of God but not given authority by Him.
I have studied both the quran and the Bible and will continue to do so because both have outstanding messages for the heart of those seeking truth.
May God bless you and your loved ones and I do appreciate you for saying this.
GC66,
Concerning the last line of your last post, your desire for truth as ultimate is very Grecian. That does no honour to the Quran or to the God of Israel (who is higher than revealed deity by a book by men but is the revealed Word Himself, amen).
To help point you in a better way concerning your pains on Matthew 5:17-20, you need a better righteousness than that of the law. The Pharisees were more perfect that Mecca in keeping works (having many detailed instructions and more strict systems), and unless you are better now than they in their post-exilic 2nd temple traditionalism (which I doubt it), you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
To understand Jesus’ words, you need the Spirit of truth. Not truth or a desire itself, but the Spirit of God.
So I guess it is safe to understand that you adhere to the trinity, according to your last sentence??
Believing in the trinity is a form of polytheism which is the one sin God does not forgive.
The only problem here is that Chrisitians do not admit they are polytheists, so this may in fact…….be your defense(be it a poor one) on Judgement Day.
You are commanded by God to have no others before Him. There is no equal to Him.
The trinity….. was never part of the original message, but added at the end of the 4th CE, by man, therefore the message is corrupt, not to mention……no one knows what the original content was due to numerous scribe errors and translation from Greek to Latin.
Like you said, I don’t adhere to the “trinity,” because it’s not in the Scriptures. It was invented doctrinally to help make sense of things for the Greek converts. For the sake of others, I would answer, “yes,” as did the early church as well. Continuing in agreement, our conceptions of the “trinity” are irrelevant, because it is not informed by the Scriptures. And as much as I can see, neither is your view of polytheism (because it was always detestable to the Jew, Arab, and Christian).
Therefore, I will answer this question whenever it’s actually informed with appreciative thought (ex: Numbers 11:17) and not baseless assumption somehow held before the judgment seat. Why are you so quick to condemn me? Did you not understand Jesus’ words of Matthew 5 (in my last post)?
Are you a Christian or Jehovah Witness?
Christians believe in the trinity and you yourself said or led me to believe that you were Christian??
I understand fully about Matthew 5:17-20.
The Law refers to some 614 laws, to be specific, although some are no longer in effect due to the nature of worship this day and age as they pertain to present day society. The Jews were in severe transgression of them during the time of Jesus(the money exchangers for one in the temple)
I am not condeming you, just bringing up the argument(if you are Christian) of human influence and not knowing what the true content ever was. We have no originals or even copies of the earliest copies that survive.
The early Christian philosophy was very wide and very didfferent as the north pole is to the south pole(extreme opposite).
Modern orthodox Christianity is just what eventually won out over all differing opinions of what Jesus really came to teach the people of his time.
There was never one concurrent view as so many believe, just the opposite in fact.
I’m a Christian. Whenever I say the trinity is not in the OT and NT canon, that should strengthen my loyalty to the prophecies and Jesus “as both LORD and Christ.” As I said before, I don’t shy away from using trinitarian language for the sake of others. Please don’t let your value for Christianity rest on extra-biblical verbiage that is not even in our sacred text.
Finally, to barely address your boast of “such wonderful Muslim Quaranic faithfulness,” did you not know that the Hebrew Scribes were equally meticulous? so much that if there was an error of a single word, the document would be burned, even during the existence of the Septuagint (other translations)?
Indeed, the dispersion actually led to more radical strictness from Babylon and not assimilation, hence the gravity in Jesus’ statement recorded in Mt 5 (there were more laws than that, like Mishnah for example). Not to mention, which I cannot go on to say for brevity’s sake, all the other evidences for NT faithfulness, including your conclusion of NT doctrine was determined from societal prejudice through popular consensus in the church.
That’s bad Jewish history and bad Church history. It just didn’t happen that way.
In terms of your interpretation of law counting in Mt 5, how are you doing?
Bradly, we have volumes of books of proto-orthodox leaders of the first few CE that are attacking alternative beliefs in Jesus as heresey, thus we know the differing views existed.
If you want absolute proof of this……. look at the volumes of the Nag Hamadi Scriptures(Gnostics were considered heretics).
So this history is real we can be sure of this.
Do you believe the books of Matthew , John and Revelations were written by these people attributed to them?
Are you aware of III Corinthians by Paul that never made it in to the canon.
One very powerful leader, Athanasius(Bishop of Alexandria) decided in 367 CE, what books were to be the official readings of the church out of dozens upon dozens that existed and never made it.
No complete NT gospel was even bound together until the later part of the 8th CE.
The early history of Christianity is very dark and for very good reason.
In regards to Law of 614. I am not Jewish, so these do not all apply to me, but many do, as they do to all people of the faith of God.
The Law does not change, but the Jews were originally charged by God to carry them forth and they have transgressed beyond measure in perverting many of them(usury is one of the absolute worst sins that one can commit in God’s eyes.)
There are without a doubt many alternative views of the Jesus of antiquity, from his day to our day – and you are in summary blaming it on lack of a single historical, authoritative text.
“Who do men say that I am?”
The short answer to your awkward sketch of church history (which you blame for confusion over His identity) is that the proto-orthodox congregations were mostly Jews, and they were faithfully continuing in the proclamation of Jesus with a communal witness under an OT canon. Didn’t you say this above in your other posts?
I’m heading off to bed tonight, but I invite you to write me on my personal website, linkable from my name. From there, I’ll gladly and carefully work through your thoughts.
Hello. I don’t usually follow these volleys of comments (in any site), but this one I read through, though rather quickly; enough to be absorbed into it. Very interesting and good stuff.
Dear GC66,
I just re-read your original post, though I commented briefly before. You said many things that are inaccurate and I have been thinking about responding. However, others have already responded and some of them have done so with much competence, such as Bradley.
But it’s very interesting that you quoted the Bible (Matt. 5) after having said it’s untrustworthy. I wonder, do you actually believe the passage you quoted is authentic? …Why or why not?
Scott
I have no reason to doubt the content of Matthew, but I can almost assure you that Matthew did not write it.
Let’s talk about this statement please. When you say what you said in the first sentence, do you mean you think it is trustworthy? What exactly did you mean? (setting aside whom you think was or was not the author, for the time being.)